Oklahoma Hunting Forum banner

1 - 18 of 18 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
78 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I have some very accurate hunting rifles and accurate shots out to 300 yard (my personal limit) are well with in my capabilities. The two main rifles I have and have used year after year for over 30 year are KDF Voere Titan II in .308 Norma Mag and and 98 Mauser Custom built (by me) .338-06 Ack Imp. Both rifles are scoped with Leupold 4x12 scopes. I have taken 3 animals with these guns in the past 4 years and all heart shot. By that I mean the heart was aimed at and hit. Longest range was an Antelope at just over 200 yards. The Whitetail 175 yards and Moose at 40 yard. These scoped rifles get checked each year before hunting to make sure the scope is still on, usually amounting to 3 shots. I still can shoot both rifles under an inch at 100 yards. The .308 NM under 3/4". I recently had to reload for both rifles. The 100 rounds I loaded in 1989 for the .308NM ran out. The Box of 50 .338/06 Ackley had last been reloaded in 1994. Great accurate reliable game getters. But I don't shoot them much.

For the past 20 years I have been pretty heavily involved in shooting Martini's of all sorts. I love shooting my Martini's.

I have used the 577/450 ZAR Westley Richards by Francotte to take 2 kudu in South Africa. I also took a Springbok, Steenbok and Guinea fowl with a small action Isaac Hollic Martini in 218 Mashburn Bee on that trip.



I also extensively used BSA Francotte small Martini's in 17HM2, 17 HMR, and 17 Hornady Hornet to take thousands of Montana gophers, a large number of Rock chucks, jack rabbits, prairie dogs and badgers. The Hollis .218 Bee also was used to on gophers. The last season I shot Gophers in Montana I used the 17 Hornet and fired 1250 rounds in 4 days.



I did take my Greener Martini in 577/500 Express on the moose hunt but circumstances did not provide an opportunity to use it.

I have also taken Turkey and pheasant with my Martini shotgun.

Since moving to Oklahoma I haven't had much opportunity to go game shooting. Hunting around here is pretty limited by access and for me now deer hunting is about all the Oklahoma game hunting I will do.


I recently acquired a pair of .303 Martini's with the Idea of carrying them to the deer blind.

The first is a Sporting Martini made for Rawbone, Cape Town about 1890. It is a .303, not a .303 British. It is .303 with Metford Bore. It has the same ballistics as a .303 British but use a .304 bullet rather than a .311 bullet. I have to make my own ammo.



The Second gun is indeed a .303 British caliber Sporting Martini, made by Halloway and Naughton some where after 1904 probably around 1920. THe bore on this rifle is shot out. That old cordite ammo eats up rifling. I am probably going to have this gun bored out to .375 2-1/2" Flanged NE.



I am going to start working up loads for Rawbone .303. If I can get it to shoot 3", 100 yard groups I will take it to the deer stand for 100 yard shots.

Next year I am planning on going out to New Mexico for Elk and I will take the Greener 577/500 EXP with me. I had to build a new front sight for this gun and still have to file it in.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
13,586 Posts
Nice collection of classic firearms!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
78 Posts
Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
I have hunted a lot in my 56 years of hunting and will stop only when they bury me.

I still want to take the big buck, but if I am hunting, that is more important. I don't need to hunt. But no hunting this year is bothering me.

Here is the rest of classic big game rifles in my locker.




Barnsley Sporting rifle in 577/450 Martini. Unusual in that it uses a Mk IV style action, It not a sporterized military rifle, rather a purpose built Sporting rifle. Made in England for Barnsley, Grahamtown, South Africa. Maker unknown.




Greener S1 Martini Sporting rifle made 1898 in 500 Blackpowder Express, called 577/500 Express in modern times. Made for the Export market for shooting Tigers in India. I you have a Tiger problem, call me.




Isaac Hollis and Son's Sporting rifle in Westley Richards No. 2 Musket. Very popular in South Africa. Cartridge made as direct competitor to 577/450 Martini. Very popular in South Africa. It is not known for sure if Hollis made these rifle or contracted them as was done in the era. But this style action is only seen in Hollis guns.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
13,586 Posts
Interesting to see the difference in the forearms vs the modern firearms.
The splinter style is popular in European gun styles.
I have some English stocked shotguns that show that style.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
10,532 Posts
You need a son to will any of that to let me know...nice collection for sure.
 
  • Like
Reactions: kwaynem

·
Banned
Joined
·
6 Posts
My father is a big lover of KDF Voere Titan II, he has 2 of them. He allowed me to shot some time from it, it was an amazing experience
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
78 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
When did he get his KDF guns? I worked part time for KDF in 1988 and may have built his guns if he got them then.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
78 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Well I went to Crossno's to pick up a Martini in 450 Musket No. 2 that I had Mike Bassett solders sights on for me. While talking to Mike I learned that they do barrel lining.

When I got home I pulled out the Holloway and Naughton Martini (pictured above) and measured the barrel for a liner. I had been thinking since this barrel had no caliber markings, I would re line and chamber this rifle for .375 2-1/2 Flanged NE. When I looked closely at the proofs I saw the caliber mark 303. If I were to rechamber I would have to obliterate the markings. Better to keep the gun in caliber. So i order a .303/.311 liner from TJ's Liners. When the liner come in I will take it out to Mike and have it installed.



Hopefully I can get this gun back to shooting.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
13,586 Posts
Do they bore the barrel before putting in the liner?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
78 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Yes, they bore the barrel and slide the liner in then rechamber. I am set up to do rimfire liners with a piloted drill. I did all my 17 Rimfires. You need a gun drill and coolant pump to do the larger bores. I have used Green loctite and acraglass gel to secure the liners.

Old school was to shrink fit or solder the liner. New school-epoxy, preserves the outside features and markings.

Only downside, the liners that are available are even lands and grooves. British-Enfield rifling is usually odd number, 5 in the .303 Brit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
I see that you are a great expert in your field, and you have a lot of trophies and you have a lot of weapons in your warehouse. I think you can answer my question, I recently bought a new AR 15 and I want to buy an additional sight for it so that it would be more convenient to shoot from it. I came across the sights for the AR 15 The Top 6 Best Iron Sights for AR 15 in 2021 – All Outdoors and I want to know if you have used any and can tell which one is best to take. I usually hunt small animals, like wild boars, and would like to buy a sight worth up to$120
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
78 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
They are a different kind of rifle and take some getting use to.

I just noticed an error in post number three. I had a picture of the Greener posted and listed a the Hollis. I edited that post to show the correct rifle.

Here is the Hollis.



It is in Westley Richards Musket No. 2 chambering. Known in modern time as the 500/450 Musket number 2. Here is a cartridge next to a .577/450 Martini.



The cartridge was created by Westly Richards to compete directly in the market against the 577/450 Martini cartridge. Gibbs had a very similar cartridge known as the 500/450. There is very little difference between the W.R. and Gibbs cartridges. Both the Romanians and the Turks adapted this cartridge in their Martini Military rifles.

Both the W.R. and Gibbs cartridges in black powder duplicated the ballistics of the Martini- 1200fps with a 480 gr. PP bullet. They were more efficient cartridges than the Martini, using less powder in a drawn case. The Musket No. 2 cartridge was very popular hunting cartridge in South Africa. The Musket cartridge is inherently more accurate than the voluminous Martini cartridge in its foil cartridge. The cartridge was loaded commercially up into the mid 1930 in a smokeless load, shooting a 500 grain bullet at 1300 fps.

Sorry, got carried away, but I do like my Martini's
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
13,586 Posts
They are a different kind of rifle and take some getting use to.

I just noticed an error in post number three. I had a picture of the Greener posted and listed a the Hollis. I edited that post to show the correct rifle.

Here is the Hollis.



It is in Westley Richards Musket No. 2 chambering. Known in modern time as the 500/450 Musket number 2. Here is a cartridge next to a .577/450 Martini.



The cartridge was created by Westly Richards to compete directly in the market against the 577/450 Martini cartridge. Gibbs had a very similar cartridge known as the 500/450. There is very little difference between the W.R. and Gibbs cartridges. Both the Romanians and the Turks adapted this cartridge in their Martini Military rifles.

Both the W.R. and Gibbs cartridges in black powder duplicated the ballistics of the Martini- 1200fps with a 480 gr. PP bullet. They were more efficient cartridges than the Martini, using less powder in a drawn case. The Musket No. 2 cartridge was very popular hunting cartridge in South Africa. The Musket cartridge is inherently more accurate than the voluminous Martini cartridge in its foil cartridge. The cartridge was loaded commercially up into the mid 1930 in a smokeless load, shooting a 500 grain bullet at 1300 fps.

Sorry, got carried away, but I do like my Martini's
Amazing to see how cartridges have evolved over the years with those pics. The shoulders have been moved way forward and at a much sharper angle.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
13,586 Posts
Wow, you have a really cool collection. I especially liked the look of the Sporting Martini. An amazing thing...
Do your hunt or fish? What is your favorite game or fish to catch?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
78 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Dennis, I am chuckling a bit, a wild thought just came to mind, I wonder. Should I have my reamer maker do me up a new Martini Reamer? Bet I would be the first kid on the block to have 577/450 Martini Ackley Improved!

As to evolution of the brass cartridge, hard to find better example of what they were thinking. The Martini cartridge originally was a foil cartridge. The head holding the primer was steel and was the only critically measured part of the cartridge. The front half of the cartridge was brass foil and crush fit. Modern shooters have a lot difficulty reloading solid drawn cases for the Martini as the front half of the chamber is non standard. The Shoulder is ogee-like a "S" sort of, no set radius or location of the arcs. The body taper is not uniform from gun to gun. Once you learn to manage the variables it shoots just okay. Challenging.



Glad that design failed-but the British used it for almost 20 years.

A lot to be said for those old cartridges. I got 54 inches of penetration on that kudu pictured in the first post. Shot from about 45 yards as it was quartering away from me. At the direction of the PH the shot was aimed just in front of the left hip towards the right shoulder. The bullet passed through stomach, liver, lung, broke a rib, broke the far shoulder and then passed through. 480 gr bullet at 1300 fps with blackpowder. The animal was knocked on his nose at the shot and never got up..

A lot of fun hunting with these old cartridges. The hardest part of hunting these days is finding game. The shooting with modern guns and cartridges is almost like killing in the abattoir. See the game, shoot it. With the old guns, step one if finding the game. Step two is getting close enough to shoot ( getting it to come close enough to shoot.) Puts the excitement back in the hunt.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
13,586 Posts
Dennis, I am chuckling a bit, a wild thought just came to mind, I wonder. Should I have my reamer maker do me up a new Martini Reamer? Bet I would be the first kid on the block to have 577/450 Martini Ackley Improved!

As to evolution of the brass cartridge, hard to find better example of what they were thinking. The Martini cartridge originally was a foil cartridge. The head holding the primer was steel and was the only critically measured part of the cartridge. The front half of the cartridge was brass foil and crush fit. Modern shooters have a lot difficulty reloading solid drawn cases for the Martini as the front half of the chamber is non standard. The Shoulder is ogee-like a "S" sort of, no set radius or location of the arcs. The body taper is not uniform from gun to gun. Once you learn to manage the variables it shoots just okay. Challenging.



Glad that design failed-but the British used it for almost 20 years.

A lot to be said for those old cartridges. I got 54 inches of penetration on that kudu pictured in the first post. Shot from about 45 yards as it was quartering away from me. At the direction of the PH the shot was aimed just in front of the left hip towards the right shoulder. The bullet passed through stomach, liver, lung, broke a rib, broke the far shoulder and then passed through. 480 gr bullet at 1300 fps with blackpowder. The animal was knocked on his nose at the shot and never got up..

A lot of fun hunting with these old cartridges. The hardest part of hunting these days is finding game. The shooting with modern guns and cartridges is almost like killing in the abattoir. See the game, shoot it. With the old guns, step one if finding the game. Step two is getting close enough to shoot ( getting it to come close enough to shoot.) Puts the excitement back in the hunt.
Truely amazing about the foil cartridge. I've never seen that.
Agree with your analysis of modern hunting. I've basically gone the long range route to introduce more difficulty as well as using pistols when the opportunity presents itself.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bird (this time)

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
78 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Yes I did the long range hunitng and the pistol hunting. Great fun, great challenges. Did archery also but gave it up due to a shoulder injury. I do shoot my bow now on low draw weight.

i am thinking about doing archery this fall or muzzle loader. Might as well as I will be sitting in a blind for deer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,105 Posts
Fantastic history lesson with the ammo and the rifles. It's amazing that at the time of introduction of the foil rounds, the troops more than likely thought they had just entered the space age compared to what they had been using.
 
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
Top